Really interesting review Shane. I think my vote is for the Art of Fermentation book, as while it sounds the least interesting from an abstract or speculative pov compared to all the others, I think rediscovering fermentation and using it in new ways with new foods will/could be very important for the future. It’s kind of a textbook example of low-tech biological technology, imo.
Anyway, some thoughts:
“ A. 100 hunter gatherers who spend 70% of their time foraging. This gives 30 full time equivalent human lives (30% of 100 people) that are free to do non-essential tasks.
B. 1000 farmers who spend 80% of their life farming. That leaves 200 equivalent free lives.
C. 10 000 industrial suburbanites who spend 90% of their life “working”, leaving 100 equivalent free lives. “
This is where social organization becomes important, as I don’t think the focus should be on free time vs work (which already uses a framing of working *for* someone else and being allowed time off). With hunter-gatherers, while they do have an abundance of leisure time especially compared to moderns, the two most important factors are that 1) the work they do is fulfilling and enjoyable, and 2) the work they do is for themselves, and combined with point 1 means that it is hard to distinguish from leisure in the first place.
Compared to peasant farmers, which not only have less leisure time than HG, but the work they do is harder and less rewarding, which they are forced to do in service of an elite ruling class.
So to me, the more important issue is not how much we work, but what kind of say we have in the work we do and who we are doing that work for. Even hard work can be fulfilling when done out of passion or for a personal project, and doing work for your family or community is very different than doing it for your local lord or for a soulless corporation so you don’t end up homeless.
“ This may be the case, but that then brings up the question of what free time for humans is even for, and is there an optimum amount of it? Imagine you could swallow a single pill which would supply you with all the nutrients you need for the rest of your life. You now have an extra 40 hours a week of free time, as do 8 billion other people. What would we do with that time? Are we already facing a stagnating surplus of human potential? Would we all just do crosswords and play Candy Crush to pass the extra time?
This line of questioning brings us to deeper questions. What is the purpose of humanity? What is the purpose of life on Earth? What is the purpose of the universe itself, if it has any other than converting high quality energy into waste heat as fast as possible. If that is all there is to existence, then industrial civilisation and its overflowing landfills are the crowning glory of creation. “
Yes, this is something we touched on in my second interview, though I’m not sure how well I expressed it. Western society is mythically very focused on some grand project, the idea that this is all ‘for’ something. Neurologically, we are all kept stuck in the neurotic task-mind, always rushing around or thinking we need to achieve some end goal. But as you said, this falls apart once we actually achieve it, as the illusion of there being some greater purpose to it all disappears and we are left with the reality of vapidly consuming the world for our own pleasure or to sate the bottomless gullets of the rich.
“ What if the universe is just one great outrageous party? “
This is closer to how our ancestors and indigenous societies view it, though more like the universe is one continuous dance or song, constantly creating and recreating itself with the overlapping interactions of its members. This is why indigenous beliefs are so focused on balance and mimicry. Is the universe an object you can put together the right or wrong way, or is it a pattern, a song, that ebbs and flows and changes forms?
The ‘point’ of being alive is to be alive, to enjoy our part and place in the dance. Children know this well, and before we are conditioned to the task mind and the conceptual baggage of the great project we are content to enjoy the wonders and mysteries of life and the present moment. I think there is a lot of wisdom in that, in being able to slow down and let go of these abstract ideas and focus on the world as it’s really happening around us, even if it’s hard to reignite that childlike passion and wonder and zest for life that many of us have had stamped out.
But yeah, the point being that you won’t find the ‘point’ in any abstract answer, because it’s discovered in living it out from moment to moment. My hope and prediction is that future societies will remember our part in the dance and our place in the world, and be able to enjoy life for its own sake again without having to justify it conceptually first. :)
Duly noted for Fermentation to review. I started browsing it a while ago and want to return to it through a lens of how the technology can be adapted and extended in the future. Many other delicious thoughts in there- too many to dive into with the day running short but thank you for sharing!
Maybe the optimum involves a mode of existence where the “work” is fulfilling and relatively enjoyable for the most part, which we are very far from at the moment. I find that gardening and related physical is generally enjoyable, and part of that is because it’s not purely rote repetition of the same menial tasks, but it is also exercise. When I do ground preparation for annuals in the spring, there does get to be a point where I get tired of the same, relatively hard activity. Diversified horticulture and hunting is probably closest to most enjoyable in that regard. I don’t believe there is a deeper meaning than for us to participate in the flourishing of life on this planet.
Very interesting read, I have been thinking a lot about ‘what is the point of human existence’ and I would recommend the read of ‘Buffalobird-Woman's Guide to Traditional Methods’ or a more modern book, The Way Home by Mark Boyle.
I have been thinking a lot (and talking with others) much about differentiating between what are needs and what are wants. And I have gotten to the conclusion, that we are way too much a wants/lust based society and to have a good, fulfilling life, we need to spend most of our time fulfilling our needs. But that is more than just our basic needs, we also have social needs for example. I heard babies can die due to psychological neglect.
The other part that has been a big learning for me is that all of our emotions are equally important and have a purpose. I used to think that anger and fear was purely a bad thing to feel, but now I think they also are important to allow myself to feel them.
These are thoughts that come to my mind when talking of purpose of humanity.
I reviewed that amazing book about the Lakota precolonial farming a while ago. Highly recommended people check it out for a direct account of a very different world. The Boyle is new to me- added to my TBR list.
The transformation to a wants driven society/economy was engineered in response to industrial overproduction in the late 19th/early 20th century. People had to be brainwashed into wanting ever more things to prevent the debt pyramid from collapsing. I wonder if there is a similar forgotten dynamic in the shift from foraging to agricultural lifestyles.
It’s more about what emotions are appropriate for the situation and using those in a wise and skillful way. And considering that our emotions are more like messengers making us aware of a problem than necessary drivers of action.
I'd be interested in hearing your take on Rupert Sheldrake's work. I read "A New Science of Life" a while back and found it quite interesting, although some of his conclusions were more on the speculative side.
I have listened to many Sheldrake interviews and his capacity to step outside the presuppositions of the modern mindset is utterly priceless. Will definitely be reviewing this one soon enough.
OK, a vote for U- Darwin's Unfinished Symphony. The book is not a great literary achievement, but the concept of learning, and culture as a whole other level of evolution, and the feedback loop to biology just helps me make sense of the whole shit show we are part of.
Since the guy is a scientist, it's more than speculation, with field work and experiments, but it's the explanatory power that has stuck with me two years after I read it is why I endorse it.
Interesting thoughts. I haven't read this book, and I'm not likely to...
But to the questions: after all, we evolved for certain contexts and adaptations. Color binocular vision, excellent manipulative skills, good cognitive functions, the importance of social aspects, language, mental mapping, etc.
Ultimately, unhealthy cards were eliminated in a constant game of survival. This led us to where we are. Are our current cards maladaptive? 100%.
Can we change them? We can. Whether we survive this time is up to chance.
I was going to vote for Twenty First Century Hoe Farming but it must have been on a different list. Only because I am into hoeing a long row this year . Not much insight here because summer is a crescendo of work. Myopic and tired , getting hotter.
I thought I had reviewed Twenty First Century Hoe Farming on substack but I must have only read it to prepare to interview the author on the podcast. Give me some time and I will revisit it for a proper write up!
I always found Odums eMergy analysis far more applicable and useful than traditional EROEI.
The various transformations have to be taken into account to get the full qualitative analysis of energy, or else it's easy to make the mistake of thinking gross sunlight is as good an energy source as massively concentrated and time-transformed fossilised sunlight.
Yeah- boiling everything down to energy is a useful trick, but also distorts our view. Do you have any particular Odum books you would recommend I read/review first?
"10 000 industrial suburbanites who spend 90% of their life “working”, leaving 100 equivalent free lives"
I think it's quite the opposite. As modern western suburbanites work typically 8h a day, 5 days a week, 48 weeks a year during about half of their life, I guess they are much closer to 10% than 90 ?
Incidentally, to get to this point, it was a process that lasted throughout the industrial age. And not without struggles from time to time regarding how to share the loot. But, all in all, that's actually where a good part of the fossil fuel energy goes...
Totally made up. The concept of free/work time breaks down in most situations, so in many ways the whole thought experiment is fake. For modern suburban humans I figured that their time scrolling TikTok or watching tv is better classified as "work" since it seems to be mandatory in our culture at the moment. But I get that your way of framing it is the norm. I just wonder if those hours outside of wage labour are as free as we believe, even if we do have 40 brands of toothpaste to spend our time choosing between. But the concept of free/freedom/choice is a philosophical tar pit that I am keen to back out of... :D
Héhé. Yes, indeed freedom of choice and free will is quite the philosophical tar pit.
But I still consider doing something to earn money (or energy) or producing anything that can be converted into money, goods or services to be work.
There might still be exceptions but according to this broad definition, people are not working when watching TV, scrolling Tiktok or vacationing by the sea. No more than attending pilgrinage or drinking ale at the tavern was working for a medieval peasant. Even if these activities do generate profits for other people and might or might not be socially mandatory depending on the context.
So I do believe that the immoderate use of fossil fuel gave people much more free time on average than their ancestors use to get. Which, of course, doesn't mean that everyone can make the best use of it.
Regarding your list of TBR, I must say I haven't read most of them so I cannot give you any advice here. But just by their titles, many of them sound interesting. I guess I will keep the list and pick up a few ideas. Thanks for that.
About the books I've read, I would definitely recommend Schumacher's Small is Beautiful and what he called the Buddhist economics. Only it is now mostly history and a bit depressing. If only more of his advice had been followed 50 years ago, we might not be in the situation we're in today. Note that it can be followed by JM Greer's The Wealth of Nature: Economics As If Survival Mattered.
Beside, Peter Turchin is one of my favorite authors. I found him very convincing and I believe the way his structural-demographic theory works surely explains a great deal of human history. But unless you've already read it, I would recommend to start with Secular Cycles before reading Ultrasociety and End Times. He should also publish a new book in a few weeks so get to it now if you don't want to fall too far behind 😉
Small is Beautiful is bumped up the list on your recommendation! I need to read more Greer (usually his regular blog keeps me satisfied) so thank you for that pointer toward The Wealth of Nature too. I will make a note to start with Secular Cycles. Our demographic explosion of the last few centuries, and likely turning point in global population somewhere in the 21st century might stress test his theory on generational cycle dynamics.
Yes, sure, I've read most of Greer's books regarding our current energy and societal predicament and recommend them for his in-deep, always thoughtful and sometime provocative analysis. But I must say I get lost very fast we he starts talking about magic and occultism. So I only read his blog depending on the subject of the week.
About Turchin, as you said, the demographic tendency we can observe today might stress is theory. But if you read his books from the start, maybe you will be as surprised as I am to see how the gathering/production of energy (in the form of food) was fully integrated in his theory as far as agrarian societies were concerned and how it (quite) disappear when talking about fossil fuel availability and industrial societies. For me, this is the blind spot, or at least one of the underestimated causes, when trying to explain the evolution of modern societies according to his theory.
Thanks for a great list of books! I will leave it up to fate which one you review next. I have started reading Hybridization for the Home Gardener and will probably make my way through the rest (I really wanted to vote for the Chinese famine, but read online that the book suffers from a lack of personal accounts of what people experienced during that time).
Personal accounts bring history to life, I agree, and they are so rare to find. I saw a great interview with Samo Burja about the common belief that our grasp on history improves over time as more research happens, but that the truth is the opposite since records are destroyed or lost, eye witnesses die off, and written records get progressively harder to interpret accurately. I need to find a few good books about the rinderpest famine in Africa- a truly monumental event that few people know ever happened and which has reshaped the continent to this day.
Really interesting review Shane. I think my vote is for the Art of Fermentation book, as while it sounds the least interesting from an abstract or speculative pov compared to all the others, I think rediscovering fermentation and using it in new ways with new foods will/could be very important for the future. It’s kind of a textbook example of low-tech biological technology, imo.
Anyway, some thoughts:
“ A. 100 hunter gatherers who spend 70% of their time foraging. This gives 30 full time equivalent human lives (30% of 100 people) that are free to do non-essential tasks.
B. 1000 farmers who spend 80% of their life farming. That leaves 200 equivalent free lives.
C. 10 000 industrial suburbanites who spend 90% of their life “working”, leaving 100 equivalent free lives. “
This is where social organization becomes important, as I don’t think the focus should be on free time vs work (which already uses a framing of working *for* someone else and being allowed time off). With hunter-gatherers, while they do have an abundance of leisure time especially compared to moderns, the two most important factors are that 1) the work they do is fulfilling and enjoyable, and 2) the work they do is for themselves, and combined with point 1 means that it is hard to distinguish from leisure in the first place.
Compared to peasant farmers, which not only have less leisure time than HG, but the work they do is harder and less rewarding, which they are forced to do in service of an elite ruling class.
So to me, the more important issue is not how much we work, but what kind of say we have in the work we do and who we are doing that work for. Even hard work can be fulfilling when done out of passion or for a personal project, and doing work for your family or community is very different than doing it for your local lord or for a soulless corporation so you don’t end up homeless.
“ This may be the case, but that then brings up the question of what free time for humans is even for, and is there an optimum amount of it? Imagine you could swallow a single pill which would supply you with all the nutrients you need for the rest of your life. You now have an extra 40 hours a week of free time, as do 8 billion other people. What would we do with that time? Are we already facing a stagnating surplus of human potential? Would we all just do crosswords and play Candy Crush to pass the extra time?
This line of questioning brings us to deeper questions. What is the purpose of humanity? What is the purpose of life on Earth? What is the purpose of the universe itself, if it has any other than converting high quality energy into waste heat as fast as possible. If that is all there is to existence, then industrial civilisation and its overflowing landfills are the crowning glory of creation. “
Yes, this is something we touched on in my second interview, though I’m not sure how well I expressed it. Western society is mythically very focused on some grand project, the idea that this is all ‘for’ something. Neurologically, we are all kept stuck in the neurotic task-mind, always rushing around or thinking we need to achieve some end goal. But as you said, this falls apart once we actually achieve it, as the illusion of there being some greater purpose to it all disappears and we are left with the reality of vapidly consuming the world for our own pleasure or to sate the bottomless gullets of the rich.
“ What if the universe is just one great outrageous party? “
This is closer to how our ancestors and indigenous societies view it, though more like the universe is one continuous dance or song, constantly creating and recreating itself with the overlapping interactions of its members. This is why indigenous beliefs are so focused on balance and mimicry. Is the universe an object you can put together the right or wrong way, or is it a pattern, a song, that ebbs and flows and changes forms?
The ‘point’ of being alive is to be alive, to enjoy our part and place in the dance. Children know this well, and before we are conditioned to the task mind and the conceptual baggage of the great project we are content to enjoy the wonders and mysteries of life and the present moment. I think there is a lot of wisdom in that, in being able to slow down and let go of these abstract ideas and focus on the world as it’s really happening around us, even if it’s hard to reignite that childlike passion and wonder and zest for life that many of us have had stamped out.
But yeah, the point being that you won’t find the ‘point’ in any abstract answer, because it’s discovered in living it out from moment to moment. My hope and prediction is that future societies will remember our part in the dance and our place in the world, and be able to enjoy life for its own sake again without having to justify it conceptually first. :)
Duly noted for Fermentation to review. I started browsing it a while ago and want to return to it through a lens of how the technology can be adapted and extended in the future. Many other delicious thoughts in there- too many to dive into with the day running short but thank you for sharing!
Definitely interested in book reviews.
Maybe the optimum involves a mode of existence where the “work” is fulfilling and relatively enjoyable for the most part, which we are very far from at the moment. I find that gardening and related physical is generally enjoyable, and part of that is because it’s not purely rote repetition of the same menial tasks, but it is also exercise. When I do ground preparation for annuals in the spring, there does get to be a point where I get tired of the same, relatively hard activity. Diversified horticulture and hunting is probably closest to most enjoyable in that regard. I don’t believe there is a deeper meaning than for us to participate in the flourishing of life on this planet.
Very interesting read, I have been thinking a lot about ‘what is the point of human existence’ and I would recommend the read of ‘Buffalobird-Woman's Guide to Traditional Methods’ or a more modern book, The Way Home by Mark Boyle.
I have been thinking a lot (and talking with others) much about differentiating between what are needs and what are wants. And I have gotten to the conclusion, that we are way too much a wants/lust based society and to have a good, fulfilling life, we need to spend most of our time fulfilling our needs. But that is more than just our basic needs, we also have social needs for example. I heard babies can die due to psychological neglect.
The other part that has been a big learning for me is that all of our emotions are equally important and have a purpose. I used to think that anger and fear was purely a bad thing to feel, but now I think they also are important to allow myself to feel them.
These are thoughts that come to my mind when talking of purpose of humanity.
I reviewed that amazing book about the Lakota precolonial farming a while ago. Highly recommended people check it out for a direct account of a very different world. The Boyle is new to me- added to my TBR list.
The transformation to a wants driven society/economy was engineered in response to industrial overproduction in the late 19th/early 20th century. People had to be brainwashed into wanting ever more things to prevent the debt pyramid from collapsing. I wonder if there is a similar forgotten dynamic in the shift from foraging to agricultural lifestyles.
It’s more about what emotions are appropriate for the situation and using those in a wise and skillful way. And considering that our emotions are more like messengers making us aware of a problem than necessary drivers of action.
I'd be interested in hearing your take on Rupert Sheldrake's work. I read "A New Science of Life" a while back and found it quite interesting, although some of his conclusions were more on the speculative side.
I have listened to many Sheldrake interviews and his capacity to step outside the presuppositions of the modern mindset is utterly priceless. Will definitely be reviewing this one soon enough.
OK, a vote for U- Darwin's Unfinished Symphony. The book is not a great literary achievement, but the concept of learning, and culture as a whole other level of evolution, and the feedback loop to biology just helps me make sense of the whole shit show we are part of.
Since the guy is a scientist, it's more than speculation, with field work and experiments, but it's the explanatory power that has stuck with me two years after I read it is why I endorse it.
Out of the three books titled "Darwin's.....(fill in the blank)" this one will go first :D
Interesting thoughts. I haven't read this book, and I'm not likely to...
But to the questions: after all, we evolved for certain contexts and adaptations. Color binocular vision, excellent manipulative skills, good cognitive functions, the importance of social aspects, language, mental mapping, etc.
Ultimately, unhealthy cards were eliminated in a constant game of survival. This led us to where we are. Are our current cards maladaptive? 100%.
Can we change them? We can. Whether we survive this time is up to chance.
I was going to vote for Twenty First Century Hoe Farming but it must have been on a different list. Only because I am into hoeing a long row this year . Not much insight here because summer is a crescendo of work. Myopic and tired , getting hotter.
I thought I had reviewed Twenty First Century Hoe Farming on substack but I must have only read it to prepare to interview the author on the podcast. Give me some time and I will revisit it for a proper write up!
I always found Odums eMergy analysis far more applicable and useful than traditional EROEI.
The various transformations have to be taken into account to get the full qualitative analysis of energy, or else it's easy to make the mistake of thinking gross sunlight is as good an energy source as massively concentrated and time-transformed fossilised sunlight.
Yeah- boiling everything down to energy is a useful trick, but also distorts our view. Do you have any particular Odum books you would recommend I read/review first?
Hum... How did you get this number ?
"10 000 industrial suburbanites who spend 90% of their life “working”, leaving 100 equivalent free lives"
I think it's quite the opposite. As modern western suburbanites work typically 8h a day, 5 days a week, 48 weeks a year during about half of their life, I guess they are much closer to 10% than 90 ?
Incidentally, to get to this point, it was a process that lasted throughout the industrial age. And not without struggles from time to time regarding how to share the loot. But, all in all, that's actually where a good part of the fossil fuel energy goes...
Totally made up. The concept of free/work time breaks down in most situations, so in many ways the whole thought experiment is fake. For modern suburban humans I figured that their time scrolling TikTok or watching tv is better classified as "work" since it seems to be mandatory in our culture at the moment. But I get that your way of framing it is the norm. I just wonder if those hours outside of wage labour are as free as we believe, even if we do have 40 brands of toothpaste to spend our time choosing between. But the concept of free/freedom/choice is a philosophical tar pit that I am keen to back out of... :D
Héhé. Yes, indeed freedom of choice and free will is quite the philosophical tar pit.
But I still consider doing something to earn money (or energy) or producing anything that can be converted into money, goods or services to be work.
There might still be exceptions but according to this broad definition, people are not working when watching TV, scrolling Tiktok or vacationing by the sea. No more than attending pilgrinage or drinking ale at the tavern was working for a medieval peasant. Even if these activities do generate profits for other people and might or might not be socially mandatory depending on the context.
So I do believe that the immoderate use of fossil fuel gave people much more free time on average than their ancestors use to get. Which, of course, doesn't mean that everyone can make the best use of it.
Hi
Regarding your list of TBR, I must say I haven't read most of them so I cannot give you any advice here. But just by their titles, many of them sound interesting. I guess I will keep the list and pick up a few ideas. Thanks for that.
About the books I've read, I would definitely recommend Schumacher's Small is Beautiful and what he called the Buddhist economics. Only it is now mostly history and a bit depressing. If only more of his advice had been followed 50 years ago, we might not be in the situation we're in today. Note that it can be followed by JM Greer's The Wealth of Nature: Economics As If Survival Mattered.
Beside, Peter Turchin is one of my favorite authors. I found him very convincing and I believe the way his structural-demographic theory works surely explains a great deal of human history. But unless you've already read it, I would recommend to start with Secular Cycles before reading Ultrasociety and End Times. He should also publish a new book in a few weeks so get to it now if you don't want to fall too far behind 😉
Small is Beautiful is bumped up the list on your recommendation! I need to read more Greer (usually his regular blog keeps me satisfied) so thank you for that pointer toward The Wealth of Nature too. I will make a note to start with Secular Cycles. Our demographic explosion of the last few centuries, and likely turning point in global population somewhere in the 21st century might stress test his theory on generational cycle dynamics.
Yes, sure, I've read most of Greer's books regarding our current energy and societal predicament and recommend them for his in-deep, always thoughtful and sometime provocative analysis. But I must say I get lost very fast we he starts talking about magic and occultism. So I only read his blog depending on the subject of the week.
About Turchin, as you said, the demographic tendency we can observe today might stress is theory. But if you read his books from the start, maybe you will be as surprised as I am to see how the gathering/production of energy (in the form of food) was fully integrated in his theory as far as agrarian societies were concerned and how it (quite) disappear when talking about fossil fuel availability and industrial societies. For me, this is the blind spot, or at least one of the underestimated causes, when trying to explain the evolution of modern societies according to his theory.
Thanks for a great list of books! I will leave it up to fate which one you review next. I have started reading Hybridization for the Home Gardener and will probably make my way through the rest (I really wanted to vote for the Chinese famine, but read online that the book suffers from a lack of personal accounts of what people experienced during that time).
Personal accounts bring history to life, I agree, and they are so rare to find. I saw a great interview with Samo Burja about the common belief that our grasp on history improves over time as more research happens, but that the truth is the opposite since records are destroyed or lost, eye witnesses die off, and written records get progressively harder to interpret accurately. I need to find a few good books about the rinderpest famine in Africa- a truly monumental event that few people know ever happened and which has reshaped the continent to this day.